Dancing in the Dark, Pt. 1
A Conversation on Love, Time & Maintaining Relationships
I just ran in the door from Shut Up & Write and rush to set up my janky tripod, so I can FaceTime . I’m already 15 minutes late. Funny thing is we met for the first time at Shut Up & Write. Both of us were excited and nervous. Robert got there before me, too. He’s timely. And he’s also wise. Since our first time meeting, we’ve made ourselves a part of each other’s lives. This conversation is us finding home within each other, dancing together even as the world burns.
TUESDAY 9PM JUNE 12, 2024
ALEX: I feel like we check in with each other pretty regularly, and I remember you posting something like, ‘I’m at a point in my life that, when I want to talk to somebody, I'm not gonna wait for that to happen. I'm just gonna reach out to them.’ I’d love to hear more about that from you.
ROBERT: I think it is borne out of two things for me. One sounds very dark and morbid, and one is lighter. So I'll start with the darker one. Some years ago, I had two very close, loved ones drown. And that affected me. That's an understatement, right?
You go through your whole life thinking that you have all the time. And then I’m sitting burying these two precious little ones. And my world got rocked because I had thought we're all immortal. I realized that life is precious. And when it's over, it's over. You don't get a second shot with the people that you say you love.
Second, I've been praying this prayer for years—especially when I got to my 30s—that I want to experience all the love I can. I feel like there's this common thing where people don't want to make new relationships. And I've been flipping that on its head. I want all the love. I'm greedy. I want a buffet of love.
That’s me. I don’t know, what do you think?
ALEX: I've been thinking a lot about time, especially having just recently entered my 30s and as I think about my grandparents getting older. I don't know how much time they have left. But that also translates to us—I don't know how much time any of us have. I want to be able to experience all that love. The things that I love, the things that I enjoy, the things that make me who I am.
Also, I think about using my time wisely. I don't want to live life burnt out. I don’t want to live life tired and exhausted and not wanting to experience anything. So, what things do I say no to? What things do I say yes to?
The last thing I’ll say is that making and maintaining friendships as an adult is a lot harder than I expected it to be. I think a lot of that is due to us evolving, friendships taking different shapes, and us having different needs as we evolve. It’s been really interesting to look at the relationships in my life and take inventory of who I want to make time for.
I'm glad we started here because there are a lot of things I’ve been thinking about that you brought to light while speaking.
ROBERT: I appreciate you, brother. I have this phrase: I love those who love me.
I’m 40. Now, when I was a younger man, I think I was obsessed with this question of: How will I know if this relationship is supposed to continue? There’s this phrase that somebody's your friend for a reason, a season, or a lifetime. And I realized that that's kind of false. The people who I pursue are people who are trying to pursue me.
I used to make it so difficult. Like Whitney Houston said, “How will I know if you really love me?” I noticed it was those people who were inching toward me. It's not the person that you expected or the person that you’ve been homies with since tenth grade. It’s usually somebody coming from backcourt.
And then also to your point about maintaining relationships and friendships as you get older—for me, I think the biggest barrier is ego. Yes, we're busy, but I feel like every human being on this planet is busy. Everybody pays taxes. We have the same hours in a day. But that ego be kicking people's ass. Not me, of course.
ALEX: I wouldn’t put that on you.
But I think that's important to speak to because, like you said, everyone is busy. And I think one of the things that I've really come to value are the people who understand that and don't get butt-hurt if you can’t respond immediately.
ROBERT: I used to be one of the people that was hurt. But I also used to be offended when people would be offended with me.
ALEX: I feel you. I just gotta schedule stuff now. I can’t pop out like I used to. I’m not just trying to maintain something; I want to maintain something that’s good.
ROBERT: My biggest role model has been bell hooks. Her book, All About Love, really transformed me because she talks about this love ethic and that transcends friendships. Most people are focusing on romance in a particular way. They think about romance, family, and friends as all separate. She's like, ‘Nah, we're reaching for the same thing, playas.’ Across all these boxes, it’s this love ethic.
One of my takeaways from her is we don't take love seriously enough. We have these hierarchies of like, you're supposed to love your friends this much. Then, you have deeper friends, and then you have like one best friend. Then, you have your family, and then you have your romantic partner. And hooks kind of does away with all of that.
I think what we’re reaching for is that heart-shape and love ethic that’s like, I want to do life with you in a way that is meaningful, that is impactful, that is intentional. And that's the lifelong work for me. That's my life's work.
ALEX: How often do you return to All About Love?
ROBERT: What's funny is, in a lot of my academic work, I either explicitly return back to that book or it’s framing. Even in how I make priorities. It has shaped so much of my thinking that the things that I write about are grounded in that love ethic—and things that I choose not to, it’s because of that. So, I go back to that book a lot. I have a lot of books on my bookshelf, but I'm a repeat offender.
ALEX: Earlier this year, we read All About Love for a book club that I’m in. I feel like usually it's around February, of course.
ROBERT: That’s when I read mine. You just have to roll like that.
ALEX: Exactly, it’s the month of love. And that is one of those books that my relationship has evolved with as I’ve gotten older. I think the first time that I read it was not so far removed from when I had left church. And I remember that book was really hard for me in a way of like, do I agree with this? Because at least from some of the writings of hers that I've read, bell hooks is not necessarily cynical about faith. She's able to hold onto these multiple realities as it pertains to faith. I was not. I couldn’t fully reconcile multiple realities at once.
I think as I've gotten older and have started to at least be hopefully a bit more understanding that two things can be true at once, it’s cool to see that’s not the hard part for me anymore when I read that book. The hard part is more so what you’re talking about. What does it mean to embody love? What does it mean to act from a place of love, to behave in a way that is loving toward myself, to the people in my life, and the communities that I'm a part of? That's a lifelong challenge.
ROBERT: Love demands that I will always arrive for my people. Y'all might not perceive me as being loving, but the reason why I'm trying to crush things that are in opposition to that is because these are enemies of love. So it's like yes, it's worked out in the interpersonal every day. But love is that grounding thing of like, this is how and why I vote, this is how and why I speak up about certain things. This is why I would never build a platform singularly focused on myself even though I could probably make more money doing that. But I would rather collaborate with other people. Because love is that generative force.
ALEX: As I’ve thought about having a platform—whatever that is—or being able to have these points online or in real life where I’m connecting with other people or people are reading what I’ve written, I want to speak to my experiences. I want to speak to my realities. But I also want to do that in such a way that it is, hopefully, pushing us collectively toward a place of greater love for one another and the communities we’re a part of.
Also, I think part of how we love here is dreaming toward new possibilities, fighting for new possibilities. It’s not just this emotional thing. Yes, that's absolutely an aspect of it. But it's also part of how we show up in terms of our activism, political organizing, different causes that we choose to support, or how we show up in our different creative expressions.
At some level, I think what we're both saying is it's not just that individual love, but it's also communal love that’s hopefully pushing us all toward something that’s better than where we are now.
The boys are back in towwwnn! What a fabulous read. I could almost hear the audio.
bell hooks ate my ass up on all about love. It was then that I realized I had only ever experienced cathexis
So beautiful and such important ideas here. We really only have so much time together. I especially liked the part about seeking new loving relationships constantly. I totally agree. It's never too late to connect with someone. Thank you for this